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Subject: PBS: Think Tank: Transcript for "The Promise and Purpose of Genetic Research"
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          <TD vAlign=3Dtop align=3Dleft width=3D543><FONT=20
            face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" color=3D#ff0000 =
size=3D1>=AB Back to <A=20
            href=3D"http://www.pbs.org/thinktank/show_517.html">The =
Promise and=20
            Purpose of Genetic Research</A> main page</FONT><BR><!-- =
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MidNav--><!-- not objTranscripts.eof=3D --><A=20
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            src=3D"http://www.pbs.org/thinktank/images/related_prog.gif" =
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            vspace=3D8 border=3D0></A><A =
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            vspace=3D8 border=3D0></A><BR><BR><FONT face=3D"Verdana, =
Arial, Helvetica"=20
            size=3D2>Transcript for:=20
            <H3>The Promise and Purpose of Genetic=20
            =
Research</H3><BR><BR><BR><BR>Transcript<BR><BR><BR><BR>ANNOUNCER:=20
            Think Tank is made possible by AMGEN, recipient of the =
Presidential=20
            National Medal of Technology. AMGEN, helping cancer patients =
through=20
            cellular and molecular biology. Improving lives today and =
bringing=20
            hope for tomorrow.<BR><BR>Additional funding is provided by =
the John=20
            M. Olin Foundation, the Lilly Endowment, and the Lynde and =
Harry=20
            Bradley Foundation.<BR><BR>(Musical break.)<BR><BR>MR. =
WATTENBERG:=20
            Think Tank recently visited a major symposium held at the =
American=20
            Enterprise Institute. It is said that the 21st Century will =
be the=20
            century of biotechnology. The topic before this house, the =
promise=20
            and purpose of genetic research, this week on Think=20
            Tank.<BR><BR>(Musical break.)<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: In =
1953, two=20
            men, James Watson and Francis Crick revealed that they had =
mapped=20
            the DNA molecule, the instructions for all life. Since then, =

            scientists have used that map in a treasure hunt for cures,=20
            vaccines, and treatments for most everything that ails us. =
Many=20
            scientists believe that in the next few decades, unlocking =
the human=20
            genetic code will benefit people's lives more than any other =

            scientific endeavor. Will we see greatly extended human life =

            expectancy? Will there be cures and preventions for such =
diseases as=20
            Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, cancer? Will we understand =
learning=20
            disabilities? Will we be able to repair damage to the=20
            brain?<BR><BR>The American Enterprise Institute conference =
tried to=20
            decode the future of DNA research.<BR><BR>MR. DeMUTH: Well, =
it is=20
            natural and valuable for geneticists to explain their work =
with all=20
            of the excitement and enthusiasm they feel for it. It is =
also=20
            important that they not exaggerate or overpromise. In =
particular, it=20
            is important that new developments and future prospects be =
described=20
            with all of their surrounding uncertainties. That failures =
be=20
            candidly acknowledged, and that heavy emphasis be placed on =
actual=20
            demonstrated advances rather than future =
promises.<BR><BR>MR.=20
            WATTENBERG: Featured at the conference were two pioneers in =
the=20
            biotech revolution, William Hazeltine, the founder and =
president of=20
            Human Genome Sciences, Inc.; and Anthony Fauci, director of =
the=20
            National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease at the =
National=20
            Institutes of Health. We asked both scientists to describe =
what to=20
            expect from the biotech revolution, and to prescribe the =
best=20
            policies for getting there.<BR><BR>Dr. William Hazeltine is =
chairman=20
            and CEO of Human Genome Sciences, a company at the forefront =
of the=20
            biotech revolution. They patent genes, and have filed for =
over 185=20
            patent applications. Bill Hazeltine was formerly the =
director of=20
            cancer pharmacology at the Dana Farber Cancer Institute at =
Harvard=20
            University.<BR><BR>Bill Hazeltine, we all hear so much about =
DNA and=20
            biotech. What happens if it works?<BR><BR>MR. HAZELTINE: If =
the=20
            revolution, the modern revolution in biology works, we lead=20
            healthier, longer lives. The impact of the new revolution in =
biology=20
            is to create new means to predict, detect, prevent, treat =
and I=20
            believe ultimately cure many of the major ills of =
man.<BR><BR>MR.=20
            WATTENBERG: For example, give me -- tell me -- let's say =
it's not=20
            1997, but it's 2027, I'm giving you 30 years.<BR><BR>MR. =
HAZELTINE:=20
            Thirty years.<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: Thirty years. What is =
it that=20
            you or I might have in the way of illness that, if we went =
to a=20
            doctor today he'd say, sorry, and that then he'll be able to =
say,=20
            here's what.<BR><BR>MR. HAZELTINE: I think that the =
fundamental=20
            presumption is different. You won't go to a doctor because =
you're=20
            sick. You will go to a doctor because you don't want to =
become sick.=20
            You will have a battery of predictive and early detection =
tests=20
            which replace what we now know as our annual health check. =
That will=20
            lead to a series of prescriptions which will be really =
lifestyle=20
            prescriptions. Some of them may involve medicine, but not =
all of=20
            them. Those will, by and large, prevent diseases that might =
occur=20
            from occurring, or ward off diseases that are in their =
earliest=20
            stages. And so, rather than going to a doctor when we're =
sick, we'll=20
            be going to doctors to continue our good health.<BR><BR>MR.=20
            WATTENBERG: But, in your list, you did say cure =
also.<BR><BR>MR.=20
            HAZELTINE: Well, there's a lot of things that can happen to =
people.=20
            Let me give you a small example from our current work. We =
have=20
            isolated that substance which is normally used by your body =
to=20
            repair injuries to the skin, that is deep injuries that cut =
not only=20
            the surface layer, such as a scrape, but the deeper layers =
such as a=20
            knife cut, or an open sore, or a burn. The same substance, =
by the=20
            way, is used to repair the lining of your gastrointestinal =
tract.=20
            What we have found in our experiments, not in people but our =

            preclinical experiments, that that substance can very =
rapidly=20
            accelerate the healing of wounds of many types that have =
been=20
            inflicted, whether it's a cut, whether it's a burn, whether =
it's a=20
            rescission of the intestine, you get a much more rapid, =
better patch=20
            than you would without it. That's the type of medicine that =
I'm=20
            referring to.<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: Since the work of =
Watson and=20
            Crick, is what is going on now just sort of filling in the =
blanks?=20
            We got the big picture, and now it's going down the array of =

            question marks, or are there tangents and brand new paths =
that=20
            you're still discovering?<BR><BR>MR. HAZELTINE: Well, that's =
a very=20
            interesting question about what is new and what isn't? Is =
there an=20
            end to knowledge? And I recently wrote a chapter for a book =
called=20
            the Microverse, and in there I divide biology, post- war =
biology,=20
            into two great eras, one which is the Watson and Crick era, =
DNA goes=20
            to RNA goes to protein and the working out of that; but =
there's a=20
            second one which is just as profound, which is all the =
differences=20
            that happen after that, and how we're built is just as much =
a part=20
            of the DNA that we are as to what happens once that =
information is=20
            read out.<BR><BR>The genetics is just one part of our =
individual=20
            variation. What happens to a gene once it's read from the =
DNA=20
            storehouse we now know is quite complex. Genes are =
considered to be=20
            like a rope and each of us can individually cut and paste =
that rope=20
            differently. So that the major things that control, for =
example,=20
            mood, the target of serotonin reuptake, the Prozac target, =
is=20
            actually cut and pasted differently in different people. We =
have=20
            found in the brain a gene that most people inherit in each =
and ever=20
            person we look at, it's tailored differently. It's almost as =
if a=20
            tailor is cutting a suit for you from the raw genetic=20
            material.<BR><BR>And, finally, for those who are overly =
concerned=20
            about genetic predetermination, let me say the more we learn =
from=20
            studies of the brain, the more we're learning that we are a =
set of=20
            potentials that are actually reacting to the environment all =
the=20
            time, and our brain is constantly being remodelled based on =
our=20
            experience. It's not that we have a fixed organ called the =
brain,=20
            it's that we have an organ called the brain which is a set =
of=20
            potentials which templates around real =
experience.<BR><BR>MR.=20
            WATTENBERG: What is the answer to the question as to whether =
we're=20
            just filling in the blanks after Watson and Crick or whether =
there=20
            are new --<BR><BR>MR. HAZELTINE: We are not filling in the =
blanks.=20
            There are great stretches of new information that are =
qualitatively=20
            different from what was perceived to be the case, say, in =
the '60s=20
            when I was trained.<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: Anthony Fauci, a =
Brooklyn=20
            native, is at the forefront of AIDS and human =
immuno-regulation=20
            research. He oversees a massive research project at NIH with =
roughly=20
            1,300 employees and a $1.3 billion budget.<BR><BR>What =
benefits can=20
            we expect?<BR><BR>DR. FAUCI: There will be immediate =
benefits. There=20
            will be curiosities and greater understanding with no =
necessary=20
            benefits, and then there will be long-term benefits. You =
have to=20
            look at it -- I'll look at it from my vantage point as a =
biomedical=20
            researcher and as a physician who is interested in human =
disease.=20
            So, you can take the revolution in DNA technology and you =
can talk=20
            about the production of products, the production of drugs in =
a=20
            massive quantities by recombinant DNA technology, that's one =

            thing.<BR><BR>But if we look purely, for example, at health, =
you can=20
            talk about diagnostics, being able to diagnose disease with =
a degree=20
            of sensitivity and specificity that we would never have =
imagined=20
            prior to the availability of these molecular techniques. You =
can=20
            talk about the development of new drugs by using the power =
of DNA,=20
            recombinant DNA technology. You could talk about the =
development of=20
            vaccines.<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: Let's just talk about new =
drugs for=20
            a moment. What sort of afflictions would we be able to deal =
with 30=20
            years from now that we can't deal with now? I mean, and I =
know=20
            you're guessing.<BR><BR>DR. FAUCI: It isn't necessarily that =
you=20
            can't deal with, but that you can deal with in a much more =
efficient=20
            manner. For example, there are a host of human diseases =
where there=20
            is the lack of or an abnormal protein or substance that the =
body=20
            needs. And you can't just make the body produce this, you =
have to=20
            supply the body with the right machinery to do =
it.<BR><BR>MR.=20
            WATTENBERG: What sorts of diseases, names?<BR><BR>DR. FAUCI: =
For=20
            example, diabetes and insulin, to be able to treat diseases =
that=20
            require a certain component, growth hormones, other types of =

            hormones that are deficient or abnormal in an individual by=20
            providing, under the right circumstances, the genetic basis =
for=20
            producing the protein. By inserting a particular amount of =
genetic=20
            material into an individual, you can actually correct =
defects that=20
            were unimaginable with regard to being able to correct=20
            them.<BR><BR>There are congenital abnormalities of =
individuals, for=20
            example, who have cystic fibrosis, who have an abnormal gene =
that=20
            doesn't allow the proper production of a variety of =
substances,=20
            salts, or what-have-you, that's needed in order to have =
proper=20
            physiological function of a cell, the potential to correct =
that.=20
            There are hematological diseases like Sickle Cell Anemia, =
and=20
            Thalassemia, there's congenital immunodeficiency diseases., =
all=20
            these will be benefitted sooner or later. The trick is to be =
able to=20
            get the DNA technology to the right level where you can =
actually=20
            have a positive impact on the health of an =
individual.<BR><BR>MR.=20
            WATTENBERG: Will -- in a decade or two, or three from now, =
will=20
            people who have access to modern medicine still be dying of=20
            AIDS?<BR><BR>DR. FAUCI: Well, I think there certainly will =
still be=20
            people who will die of AIDS. But, if you look at the =
advances that=20
            have been made in therapies based on understanding the =
molecular=20
            make up of the virus itself. I think that will be something =
that=20
            will be far, far less common than it is now. Not to mention, =
the use=20
            of DNA technology to develop, hopefully, a safe and =
effective=20
            vaccine, that you might have rather efficient prevention of =
HIV=20
            infection, the same way that you have prevention of=20
            polio.<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: Did that -- would that be a =
vaccine=20
            that is introduced after a person has HIV, but before they =
have=20
            AIDS?<BR><BR>DR. FAUCI: Either, the most classic paradigm is =
to=20
            vaccinate someone before they get infected with a microbe. =
But, you=20
            might still, if you get someone whose level of virus is =
suppressed=20
            effectively by a drug, you may be able to vaccinate that =
person, to=20
            build up the body's own immune response, so that when you =
withdraw=20
            the drug, the body can continue to suppress the virus. All =
of those=20
            things are possible.<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: The biotech =
revolution=20
            may lead to some startling accomplishments, but what =
policies will=20
            best advance the forthcoming scientific =
breakthroughs?<BR><BR>You=20
            are a scientist, capitalist, or a capitalist- =
scientist?<BR><BR>DR.=20
            HAZELTINE: Well, at any rate, I'm an =
entrepreneur.<BR><BR>MR.=20
            WATTENBERG: You are an entrepreneur.<BR><BR>DR. HAZELTINE: =
And a=20
            scientist.<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: Your company patents=20
            genes?<BR><BR>DR. HAZELTINE: Yes, we do.<BR><BR>MR. =
WATTENBERG: And=20
            some people say, shame on you for patenting =
genes.<BR><BR>DR.=20
            HAZELTINE: Virtually no informed person says shame on us for =

            patenting genes. Supreme Court ruled, in 1981, that genes =
and living=20
            forms, if they are true creations of man, and they are =
useful, are=20
            the fit subject for patent material, or should be fit =
subjects for=20
            patents. And, indeed, around the world, all patent offices =
not only=20
            patent living organisms, they allow the patenting of genes. =
There=20
            are many businesses --<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: But, do you =
patent new=20
            genes, recombinant genes, spliced genes, or -- as if I know =
what I'm=20
            talking about -- or do you patent existing genes. I mean, I =
can't=20
            patent my ear.<BR><BR>DR. HAZELTINE: You probably should, =
it's=20
            unusual.<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: It is unusual. I mean, so =
are you=20
            patenting a gene that already existed? Evander Holyfield =
might want=20
            it.<BR><BR>DR. HAZELTINE: To be able to repair his genes, =
his ears,=20
            yes. No, but well -- let's talk about what a patent is. A =
patent=20
            allows you -- first of all, in order to have a patent, you =
have to=20
            find something new that's previously not conceived. Second =
of all,=20
            you have to demonstrate its utility. But, above all, you =
have to=20
            teach a useful art. Most people think patents mean they're =
secret.=20
            It's exactly the opposite.<BR><BR>Patents were actually =
invented by=20
            the Venetians to allow them to take technology from the =
Middle East,=20
            and sell products to the North of Europe. And so they would =
import=20
            an artisan. And they said, if you teach us how to do =
whatever you=20
            know how to do, make green glass, we will give you a 20 year =

            exclusivity to make green glass. You'll be the only one =
that's able=20
            to make and sell it, if and only if you teach us how to do =
it. That=20
            remains today the primary purpose of patents, to allow =
people to=20
            take what they would have held secret, share those secrets, =
and=20
            still have commercial protection for the fruits of their=20
            invention.<BR><BR>So the heart of a patent is sharing of =
that=20
            knowledge and teaching, not keeping it secret. The =
alternative for=20
            that Middle Eastern green glass maker was to hold that =
secret and=20
            pass it only on to his son or daughter, when he died. The =
patent=20
            system is designed to protect the small inventor and to =
allow them=20
            to share, so all of society can move forward. Most people =
don't=20
            realize that the key communication for our technical world =
is the=20
            patent application.<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: Do some of your =
fellow=20
            scientists give you grief over this?<BR><BR>DR. HAZELTINE: =
Not=20
            anymore. They first thought -- when we first set up the =
company,=20
            because we had such a -- we created a tool that could find =
and make=20
            useful many genes at once. People were concerned. They then =
raised=20
            the concern, should we patent genes at all? After further=20
            consideration, the scientific community as a whole has now =
come to=20
            the conclusion that, provided we meet the criteria of =
patentability,=20
            which is novelty, utility, and teaching how to use it, genes =
should=20
            be patented. I think it's almost a universal conclusion, =
even from=20
            those who used to be our most severe critics.<BR><BR>MR. =
WATTENBERG:=20
            You are sort of, in your corporeal form here, trying to sort =
of=20
            marry Francis Bacon and Adam Smith. Is that the idea of =
saying that=20
            the way to maximize this -- the utility of this new =
knowledge is to=20
            do it through the entrepreneurial sector, where you can =
raise=20
            capital, where you can marshall forces. And say there is not =
a=20
            conflict between Francis and Adam?<BR><BR>DR. HAZELTINE: I =
think=20
            that's one way of putting it. The other way of putting it =
would be=20
            to say that you couldn't have created this knowledge in an =
existing=20
            institution. Universities weren't appropriate and would not =
tolerate=20
            it. It was actually kicked out of the government. Big =
pharmaceutical=20
            companies let it lie fallow. We're very fortunate that in =
the U.S.=20
            we have this healthy entrepreneurial sector. And I think =
that's the=20
            sector that allowed it to happen.<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: Of =
course,=20
            it's not just entrepreneurialism. Tony Fauci emphasizes that =

            industry, government and the academy must work together. He =
cites=20
            the develop of new treatments for AIDS, such as protease =
inhibitors,=20
            as an example of the collaborative approach.<BR><BR>DR. =
FAUCI: All=20
            of that took place in a very truncated period of time, very, =
very=20
            rapidly, unusually rapid, for the develop of a drug. It was =
a=20
            beautiful example of several things. One, the transition =
from=20
            fundamental basic research to a usable product, a very =
effective=20
            drug against HIV. And also, that consortia between industry, =

            government and academia, this is a very good example, that I =
think=20
            is going to go into the textbooks of historical examples of =
how=20
            those things work together.<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: Where =
does=20
            someone like Bill Hazeltine fit in this? He's sort of the =
moderator=20
            between the -- or the gray area between pure and applied, =
and sort=20
            of takes the whole pure stuff and sort of refines it and =
giggles it=20
            and sells off some of it to the --<BR><BR>DR. FAUCI: Yes, I =
think=20
            that's a good -- yes. The biotech industry and certainly =
human genom=20
            sciences, as a prototype of that, is an example of a company =
that=20
            can do very elegant basic research, and immediately =
translate it=20
            into something.<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: So you have pure =
research and=20
            then you have these gray area, intermediary companies. And =
then they=20
            are providing the commercial pharmaceutical companies, for =
example,=20
            AMGEN, which happens to underwrite this program, and all the =
others,=20
            the Bristol Meyers and the Pfizers, and the Mercks. And they =
get it=20
            through that pipeline. And then they go out, hell bent for =
leather,=20
            and say, boom, we're going to make a product. And in this =
case, in=20
            the case of AIDS, you say it happened remarkably quickly, =
textbook=20
            fashion?<BR><BR>DR. FAUCI: Right.<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: =
Question,=20
            did it happen in this disease because of the intense =
political=20
            pressure of the gay community?<BR><BR>DR. FAUCI: No, I don't =
think=20
            that it happened because of that. Certainly, the =
constituency groups=20
            played a role in focusing and intensifying attention of the =
general=20
            public, the Congress, the administrations, several =
administrations,=20
            on the problem. I don't think it happened because of that. =
We had an=20
            epidemic that was emerging to have global impact.<BR><BR>We =
had=20
            scientific opportunities in an area that actually was very =
exciting=20
            and potentially very important research, that was something =
that=20
            people were interested in working on, because it was very =
important,=20
            clearly important from the standpoint of public health. But =
also it=20
            was an area of research that had enormous =
opportunities.<BR><BR>So I=20
            believe that when you talk about how things evolved in the =
AIDS=20
            epidemic, it's certainly not a uni- dimensional =
thing.<BR><BR>MR.=20
            WATTENBERG: The case is made, and you hear it in a political =

            context, and particularly in the HIV situation, that the =
drug=20
            companies are making too much money on these drugs, and =
people can't=20
            afford them. You know that argument also.<BR><BR>DR. FAUCI:=20
            Right.<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: How do you come out on=20
            that?<BR><BR>DR. FAUCI: You really have to take it case by =
case.=20
            But, one of the things I believe that is not appreciated by =
the=20
            general public is something that understandably is difficult =
to=20
            appreciate. When a product is made, not infrequently the =
drug=20
            companies, the pharmaceutical companies, invest an =
extraordinary=20
            amount of money into candidates that never pan =
out.<BR><BR>So=20
            they're spending tens, and sometimes hundreds of millions of =

            dollars, on candidate A, B, C, D, and E, that never make it. =
Then=20
            when candidate F or G comes along that becomes a drug, it =
becomes=20
            necessary for them to recoup not only the investments, but =
also to=20
            make a profit, so that they continue, in a fashion, to be =
able to=20
            exist, pay their stockholders or what have you.<BR><BR>As a=20
            biomedical researcher that isn't someone in a pharmaceutical =

            company, I can understand how people look at that askance =
and say,=20
            gee, why are they charging so much or why are they making so =
much=20
            money. But, in fairness to them, I think you need to look at =
the=20
            extraordinary investment that's made by the pharmaceutical =
industry=20
            in research and development.<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: Is there =
a=20
            competition or a jealousy, sort of a locker room feud, =
between=20
            industry, government and academia in these =
fields?<BR><BR>DR. FAUCI:=20
            I don't think so at all. I think there is always competition =
in=20
            science, but it's competition that generally, with few =
exceptions,=20
            is a healthy energizing competition, where --<BR><BR>MR. =
WATTENBERG:=20
            But, the researchers at NIH, you and your colleagues, are =
making a=20
            decent living wage. But, your --<BR><BR>DR. FAUCI:=20
            Hardly.<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: Hardly, right. I didn't want =
to -- I=20
            don't want to get into politics. But, your colleagues on the =
private=20
            side, and particularly those who have started their own =
companies or=20
            have got a royalty arrangement, I mean, these people either =
are or=20
            are on their way to becoming extremely wealthy men and=20
            women.<BR><BR>DR. FAUCI: I have to tell you that that really =
is not=20
            a consideration. We all have our choices. Those of us who =
want to=20
            stay with the government are doing it because of the =
extraordinary=20
            opportunities we have to do science in an atmosphere that's =
very=20
            conducive to doing science.<BR><BR>MR. WATTENBERG: What =
happens when=20
            your wife says, who's going to pay the tuitions?<BR><BR>DR. =
FAUCI:=20
            Then you make a decision. You make a decision, are you going =
to stay=20
            or are you going to go. But, while you're doing it, you =
don't say,=20
            well, gee, I wish I could be doing something else. You make =
up your=20
            mind what you're going to do. I happen to have made a =
decision in=20
            life that I want to be a researcher in an atmosphere that =
happens to=20
            be an atmosphere where you don't make a lot of money. But, =
the=20
            rewards that I get intellectually, and as a feeling of=20
            accomplishment, far outweigh financial =
compensation.<BR><BR>MR.=20
            WATTENBERG: Thank you very much.<BR><BR>And thank you. For =
Think=20
            Tank, I'm Ben Wattenberg.<BR><BR>ANNOUNCER: We at Think Tank =
depend=20
            on your views to make our show better. Please send your =
questions=20
            and comments to: New River Media, 1150 Seventeenth Street,=20
            Northwest, Washington, D.C. 20036; or e-mail us at=20
            thinktank@pbs.org. To learn more about Think Tank visit PBS =
On-line=20
            at www.pbs.org. And please let us know where you watch Think =

            Tank.<BR><BR>ANNOUNCER: This has been a production of BJW,=20
            Incorporated, in association with New River Media, which are =
solely=20
            responsible for its content.<BR><BR>Think Tank is made =
possible by=20
            AMGEN, recipient of the Presidential National Medal of =
Technology.=20
            AMGEN, helping cancer patients through cellular and =
molecular=20
            biology. Improving lives today and bringing hope for=20
            tomorrow.<BR><BR>Additional funding is provided by the John =
M. Olin=20
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Bradley=20
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program.)<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><A=20
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